Comments on Fullbright: State change as the key to emergent play

Responding a bit to Greg Kasavin's point, I th...

2010-04-05T13:14:11.297-07:00

Responding a bit to Greg Kasavin's point, I think players often try to avoid state-changing systems because we've been trained not to use them.

In traditional RPGs there are often a variety of states called 'status effects.' Things like poison, slow, petrify, confuse, etc. The degree to which these states can propagate is often limited by having separate battle screens

Some very interesting points. I see exactly where ...

2010-03-31T00:09:35.819-07:00

Some very interesting points. I see exactly where you are all coming from, and I agree that the key to emergent experiences is having multiple states which can be triggered in unpredictable ways.

That being said, it doesn't need a HUGE number of states and outcomes to give the feeling of emergent behaviours. As an example, take the original Doom. There you could quite easily

I don't think "emergent" and "u...

2010-03-22T10:21:58.648-07:00

I don't think "emergent" and "unpredictable" are synonymous, and I agree with Greg that players will avoid actions with unpredictable outcomes. Surprise may be a key element of humor and drama, but I think games are a different beast. Surprise through unpredictable outcomes of player actions can reduce the player's sense of agency and thus enjoyment of the game.
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Steve Good stuff. I think Randy and Harvey nailed...

2010-03-22T10:05:03.845-07:00

Steve

Good stuff. I think Randy and Harvey nailed this topic in their GDC talk about emergence from 4 years ago or so. I elaborated on it in one of my later talks - intentionality or improvisation or both.

I think the key is not in the meaningful state changes, but in the ability for them to *propogate* through the world. You can have oil puddles that burn, pipes with

Good writeup. Some of your "range of state in...

2010-03-20T16:12:31.383-07:00

Good writeup. Some of your "range of state inputs/outcomes" is what Randy I were trying to capture with some of our wacky diagrams here:
http://www.witchboy.net/articles/practical-techniques-%E2%80%A8for-implementing-%E2%80%A8emergent-gameplay/

Michel: I'm with you as far as AI leading to u...

2010-03-20T14:56:18.002-07:00

Michel: I'm with you as far as AI leading to unexpected moments. AI definitely changes states based on awareness, state and position of the player. I would say however that the distinction is the player's ability to make intentional inputs into the AI's states, aside from being in the AI's line of sight or not.

Good examples of games that have fewer state-changing verbs

On re-reading the post, I realize you've made ...

2010-03-20T13:00:24.434-07:00

On re-reading the post, I realize you've made the same point I have in my last comment ("their potential states… and how they can be changed").

I guess Conway's Life came to mind as soon as I read about states and emergence. Yeah…

Have a better one,

What about the granddaddy of emergent sims, Conway...

2010-03-20T12:38:06.335-07:00

What about the granddaddy of emergent sims, Conway's Life? In that, there a very small number of potential states (a cell is on or it is off), but many interesting, hard-to-predict consequences.

In Life, surprising emergent behaviour comes from the big number of interactions among elements, and keep coming because these are generative. The consequences don't have to be numerous

Isn't good AI a series of state changes? "...

2010-03-20T12:30:02.806-07:00

Isn't good AI a series of state changes? "I am unaware of the player and in idle patrol mode--oh shi there he is--I'm being attacked so I'll take cover, roll, flank, etc." Halo has no environmental state changes (except maybe huge boxes or turrets being flung around), yet I would say the Legendary difficulty combat is highly emergent.

I agree that surprise is key

I agree with everything here and wish more games p...

2010-03-20T12:19:39.001-07:00

I agree with everything here and wish more games provided open-ended approaches to combat, let alone non-combat. One thing I'd add, though, is that I think it's incorrect to assume that players naturally gravitate toward state-changing systems when predictive ones are available to them. Surprises are exciting but I think people tend to avoid them if they can.

This is a

Have you played Stalker - Call of Pripyat ? : ). T...

2010-03-20T11:28:46.229-07:00

Have you played Stalker - Call of Pripyat ? : ). That's one hell of an emergent game.